Hey everyone! This is my first blog for BASS and I am the first contributor who actually has a religion…So, here we go with something a little different:

We’ve all heard about Osama bin Ladan and his Islamic society dream (nightmare?). And there are many Muslims in California who would love to live in an Islamic society. But what kind of world are we talking about when we say Islamic society? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Did Muhammad really have in mind the Saudi royal family when he started a revolution? Iran is an “Islamic Republic” but where in the Quran or ahadith (sayings of the prophet) is there any mention of an “Islamic Republic?”

First off, we have to talk sunna (traditions). Long, long ago, 7th century Arabia was divided into tribes. The tribes had hakams (judges/mediators) who arbitrated on certain issues (if a member of the tribe kills another member’s pregnant camel, does he owe that other member one or two camels?). The ruling of the hakam would become sunna, and future generations would follow this example.

For Muslims, they follow the sunna of Muhammad. Here is a look at what I am calling his Top Ten accomplishments and why he was so loved:

1. Destruction of the idols in the Kaba and the end of Qurayshi control of it as a business (aka: you can no longer charge people to worship just because your tribe happens to be in possession of a holy site)

2. Rejection of materialism (see number one: rejection of worshiping statues and paying some tribe money to worship them)

3. Decision to worship immaterial things like compassion and mercy (”In the name of God. The compassionate, the Merciful…” (Quran))”

4. No more killing babies because they are female :-/

5. Young orphans and women have the right to inherit (Men, you can’t have it all just because you think kids and women are too simpleminded).

In response to men complaining about the new inheritance law: “Those who disobey God and His messenger, and who try to overstep the boundaries of this [inheritance] law will be thrown in Hell, where they will dwell forever, suffering the most shameful punishment (Quran, 4:14).”

6. You can no longer charge interest and keep people in debt slavery (invention of a tax free market with no-interest loans)

7. Criticism of the Byzantine Empire for its rigid stance on the trinity and it’s persecution of different Christians–even though most Christians in the Middle East were not Trinitarians.

8. Established social equality…It is reported in a hadith: The Muslim Jabalah ibn al-Ayham, an aristocrat of a wealthy tribe, was struck by another Muslim man, one less prominent and from the modest tribe of Mayzunah. Jabalah expected a harsh punishment to be inflicted on his inferior attacker. However, he was informed that in Muhammad’s Islamic society he only had the right to strike the man back with the same amount of force. Jabalah immediately quit Islam and became a Christian.

9. Challenged the local Arabian peninsula Law of Retribution, which endorsed vengeance:

“The retribution for an injury is an equal injury, but those who forgive the injury and make reconciliation will be rewarded by God (Quran, 42:40).”

From the Constitution of Medina under Muhammad: “The community may be solidly against [the criminal], and may do nothing except oppose him.”

10. Established zakat (obligatory charity). That’s right. You have to be charitable. This is not an option.

When you meet Muslims who want to live in an Islamic society, and yet want to curtail the rights of their fellow human beings, be skeptical of that. Ask those people, “Is that really the world you want to live in? You follow the sunna of one of the most progressive, liberal people of his time. He challenged the social structure, laws, and ingrained beliefs of the most powerful and dangerous people of his time in order to uplift those who were less fortunate. How can you want to live in an Islamic society and not live in the spirit of Muhammad?”

The original Muslim society founded by Muhammad was revolutionary, and Muhammad was loved and incredibly popular because of his policies. He lifted up people who needed to be lifted up the most (the poor, women, and orphans) by giving them respect, more opportunities, and more rights than they ever had before.

So what happened to the dream of the liberal and progressive Islamic society?

The room was overflowing with people. Many of the panelists invited their friends, so we had a very mixed audience. One panelist, Jennifer, was part of the Passion for Christ Movement, so we had several audience members wearing their distinctive T-shirts with words like “EX-Hypocrite” and “EX-PornAddict”. Someone from the Passion for Christ Movement was also kind enough to videotape some of the discussion. I will let you know if these videos are made available online.

The following is not a transcript. I simply took detailed notes of the discussion. Nothing is quoted, everything is paraphrased. I try to be fair and accurate, but I apologize in advance for any important omissions or errors.  No attempt has been made to verify the various claims which were made.

Introductions

The first introduction was by Shoshana, a conservative Jew. She explained that Judaism is primarily based on the Old Testament and the Talmud. The Talmud consists of two parts: Mishna, the oral laws, and Gemara, which is basically commentary. There is a range of different positions in Judaism, going from orthodox, to conservative, to liberal. She is part of the smallest group in the middle, the conservatives.

The second introduction was by Ben, a deist. Deists are monotheistic, but they believe the Bible is a metaphor. They don’t believe in miracles or in the divinity of Jesus. They believe in using reason to justify faith. It is more a philosophical position than a religious one. Ben listed a few Deists including Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John Adams, and possibly Benjamin Franklin. Deism originated in Europe, and declined around the time of the French Revolution, but there has been a resurgence in the last decade or so.

Leilani offered her own brief introduction by explaining the historical meaning of “infidel”. Infidel means to cover, as in covering the ears or eyes. The word was not originally intended as an insult, as it is often used now, but as guidance or a warning.

Opening questions

The first question was posed to the Christians, Tim and Jennifer. Why base your theology on an interpretation of Paul? That is, why is the resurrection necessary for forgiveness? Jennifer began by noting that nothing is wrong with interpretation. The crucifixion is based on facts. For example, the Roman historian Tacitus described Christ and Christian beliefs. The Talmud, too, mentions Yeshua, and the historian Thallus mentions a darkness at the time of Christ’s death. Tim discussed God’s justice. According to Tim, if you live under Sharia law, stealing is punished by cutting off the thief’s hand. This is a just punishment, because you are under Sharia law. Likewise, we are part of God’s system, so God’s justice must be just. Under God’s justice, God used an innocent man to forgive everyone’s sins.

The second question was posed to the atheists, Andrew and Daniel. What is the purpose of life? Andrew said that there is no inherent purpose. He assigns the meaning and purpose himself. He would like to have a life which is sustainable and enjoyable. Although the freedom to assign one’s own meaning can be scary, he feels more peaceful and content to rely on his own values. He is free to make himself a better person. Rather than being a pawn, he is actively responsible for changing the world. Daniel said that this made him feel more empowered, though Andrew disagreed on this point.

The third question was posed to the Muslims, Nader and Naqib. How do you weigh the evidences for different gods? After opening with a prayer, Nader explained that our purpose is to worship the greater. If we study past societies, we find that they always have a higher figure, though they often have different characteristics. To understand the details of this higher figure, it is best to ask God himself. Nader then pointed to the Koran as a book without contradictions, and some scientifically confirmable facts. The Koran refers to male and female parts of plants before people would have known it was true. It refers to the earth as egg-shaped (the kind of egg in question is a spheroid). The Koran is only a book of guidance, an instruction manual for life, but these things confirm it. While other texts have made predictions, only the Koran is perfect. The Koran says that Allah is absolute one, has no beginning or end, and has no family. Jesus clearly doesn’t fit this description. Nader said that the creation will not have evidence of the creator. Naqib added that intuition of God is not sufficient. That’s why we need the prophets.

The Muslims were also asked what they thought of the story of Abraham (summary: God asks Abraham to sacrifice his son, but stops him at the last moment). They described the story as a test of faith.

More prepared questions

Each of the next four questions was asked of all three groups. Each group was allowed about 20 minutes total to answer all the prepared questions (including the ones above). If some answers are longer or shorter than others, that means that the group allotted more or less time to that question (or I took worse notes).

Prior to these questions, Jennifer took a moment to explain the “EX-Hypocrite” T-shirt she was wearing. She said that labeling oneself a Christian does not make oneself a Christian. At an earlier point in her life, she may have thought of herself as Christian, but she wasn’t. She went on to say that she thinks there is clearly design in the universe. And she referred to the Job verse 37:18 which says that God “spread out the sky”, in agreement with current cosmological science.

What books and authors do you recommend? Jennifer recommended C. S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien. She mentioned C.S. Lewis’ Liar, Lunatic, or Lord argument. Daniel first recommended the Bible, followed by authors Carl Sagan and Dan Barker. He liked Dan Barker’s harm principle and Carl Sagan’s logic and reason. Naqib first recommended the Torah, Psalms, the Gospel, and the Koran. His final recommendation was a book called Muhammed: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources, by Martin Lings.

What led you to your beliefs? Tim said that he was a missionary child. However, he remarked that Christianity is set apart from other religions in that everyone has freedom to choose Christianity. And so he freely chose Christianity rather than just being brought up into it. Andrew explained that he came from a Christian family. When his family stopped going to church, he continued going with friends, but he eventually stopped. The concept of hell was one of the sticking points for him. So he explored many other religions (mentioning Alan Watts and Zen Buddhism), eventually deciding that the scientific is what’s most reliable. Nader explained that he is a Muslim because he wants to be. He explored other religions. He read the Koran and other books, and found the Koran to be the best.

What do you believe happens after death? Jennifer said that we have all sinned, and we are enslaved by sin. As sinners, we will experience hell after death, which is a separation from God. Daniel said that nothing happens after death. That’s why he must try to enjoy this life. He would like to help you enjoy your life too. Naqib said that when you die, you will be asked three questions: Who is God? Who is the prophet? What is your religion?

Do you try to convert other people? Tim explained that no one can be saved without Christ. So he’d have to be a monster not to try to help people. Andrew said that he wants everyone to have the freedom to choose. He wants the ideas to become well-known so that people can choose. Some atheists try to smash belief, but this isn’t very common. No one wants to force people to give up religion. However, he wants to counteract some of the negative forces from other religions. He commented that in the story of Abraham, the first question that should be asked is “Am I being deceived?” He noted that when the Jim Jones cult committed mass suicide, no angel came in to save them, as they saved Abraham’s son. We need to be more independent-minded. Nader said that Mohammed was the last prophet, and that we should share the message. But he does not convert, he only invites people to investigate. Nader also commented that Jim Jones was an atheist and communist, and was not guided by an angel.

Q&A session

The following questions were submitted by audience members.

To the Christians: What middle ground can you find with the atheists? Jennifer related an anecdote of a computer science guy to whom physics proved God. She agrees with the atheists that there is a lot of mystery in the universe to be satisfied by.

To the atheists: Could you comment on the statistics which show that atheists donate less to charities, and have higher rates of depression? Daniel thought that the relationship between atheism and depression might be going in the other direction. Depression can lead to questioning, among other things, God. He also said that there are very few explicitly atheist aid missions, and atheists often donate to religious charities too.

To the Muslims: Is it true that the Koran says that Jesus was not crucified? Naqib explained that the Koran is ambiguous about this. The Koran talks a lot about what did not happen, but does not say much about what did happen. There is a lot of controversy between traditions on Jesus. But Islamic tradition usually emphasizes the life of Jesus rather than the death.

To the Christians: Do you believe in the Rapture or the endtimes? Tim said he does not believe in the rapture, which was an idea developed in the middle ages. However, tribulations will occur. Jesus will return. Tim believes that we are in the endtimes, and that it has been the endtimes since the crucifixion.

To the atheists: Hitler destroyed millions of lives. How is this wrong? Daniel said that we decide it is wrong. We decide that destroying innocent lives is wrong.

To the Muslims: Do you believe in the endtimes? Nader said Mohammed left minor signs of the endtimes, but no one but God knows when it will occur. Since people only have free will up to their death, we can say that in a way, judgment starts at death.